Isn’t the apostasy of the West, after receiving the complete revelation of scripture, and enjoying the blessings of Christendom for over a millennium, greater than the apostasy of the Jews, who only rejected Old Testament revelation and did not experience Christendom at all? By your own standard, it seems the Jews are less sinful than the West.
Sure, apostate Christianity is its own kind of evil. The Jews have been practicing a direct antichrist religion for 2,000 years, so these are different species, and hard to compare.
I agree with your assessment of his misinterpretation of anti semitism. Joe Webbon and Jon Harris and Joseph Spurgeon have been talking on this lately. I think you expounded on it well. I love Wilson, but this is a blind spot for him.
Interesting article. I don't know pastor Wilson so haven't followed the controversy from a Christian perspective. I'm not dispensational so don't carry a special brief for Jews as more than another bloc of hopelessly lost people without the Mesaiah they, and we in our natural state, reject.
I think I follow your thoughts on the Jews in OT writings and in NT writings but I wonder your reasoning for carrying those thoughts forward past that era, say ending in AD70 with the near total destruction of their religion. No temple, no sacrifice, little to no geneology... Are they truly the same people as the Judeans? In truth the average 12 yo Baptist kid knows more about their heritage than they do.
Very good question - Jews today are the ideological descendants of the Pharisees who rejected Christ, not necessarily the blood relatives. It’s more about a covenantal mindset and lineage now.
"We will not have this man rule over us" is a universal moral position, though never more clearly articulated.
I'm not attempting to refute your position, I'm trying to understand the support for it; particularly how the rejection of Christ differs from that of any other unbeliever.
Admitedly, I am more aquatinted with liberal Jews who identify only ethnicly with their heritage.
Oh you’re fine bro - that’s what we come here for—discussion! I am open to being persuaded otherwise, but presently I understand the ideological nature of the Jewish identity to be covenantal, as Hagar was in a covenant of works with God and had no share in the promise (Galatians 2). Their unbelief is individually damning, and communally they’re cut off for the olive tree, but “if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?“
Honestly the best thing I’ve read on this topic. Thank you for you biblically-informed, charitable, persuasive, and well-written article. Very timely stuff given the last few months.
I was surprised to see a piece that was this lengthy of a criticism of Doug Wilson's interpretations of anti-semitism with no mention of dispensationalism. Especially his rejection of dispensationalism. I think it adds great context to his perspective.
My favorite dispensationalist verses are all the ones where the NT writers say that the Church is the continuation of Abraham's seed, and that the only inclusion of ethnic Jews from this point forward is through faith in Jesus. Those are the best verses.
And that’s why you guys are going down rabbit trails trying to understand a simple concept. I respect amillennials and postmillennials but you both reject a myriad of NT and more-so OT passages that explain God is not done with the nation and will fulfill His promises to true blood line Jews. We see it happening before our eyes!
Most of us were dispys for many years. I am not one now because the Scriptures are clear on the matter, church history is nearly unanimous on the matter, and because it is a fad that is dying out. You came here and brought it up for debate, but really, if you're deep in it, there's no need to fight about it, we can hopefully stick to the same general team here and edify one another on other topics.
I’m not exactly sure what you mean, sorry. His rejection of dispensationalism would be good to bring up because it would add clarity to his definition of antisemitism? Is that what you mean, and how so?
Yes. That's what I mean. I think it's fundamental in the thinking of most American Evangelicals today, especially those who are not Reformed with Post Mil Eschatology
You wrote, "I would not recommend people read Milk and Honey to understand better the current fracas on the right over Zionism, Jewishness, AIPAC, and all the rest of it. An open Bible would be better." In addition to the Bible, kindly point me to some resources to help me understand the said fracas.
Thomas Massie recently had some good inside baseball re: AIPAC. Watch his interview with Tucker. Honestly, my views have been shaped by such a wide array of voices, I would rather not point to one or two for the risk of being quickly pigeonholed on such a dicey topic. Let me just say, I wasn't being glib when I said the open Bible is our best medicine and definer of these issues.
Got that. Thanks for a very helpful discussion of Wilson's weakness on this point. I felt uneasy when he pinned everything on envy. You provided, I believe, a good definition of antisemitism.
Right, right - so just speaking in general patterns here. Plenty of Gentiles as individuals are in far worse positions in their sin than individual Jews.
So, we’re each of us vulnerable to the depths of our fallen nature, which virtually has no bottom. But in general, or on average, the Jews have to marshal their willpower against the light of the Lord more determinedly than does the average Gentile in his pagan darkness.
Isn’t the apostasy of the West, after receiving the complete revelation of scripture, and enjoying the blessings of Christendom for over a millennium, greater than the apostasy of the Jews, who only rejected Old Testament revelation and did not experience Christendom at all? By your own standard, it seems the Jews are less sinful than the West.
Sure, apostate Christianity is its own kind of evil. The Jews have been practicing a direct antichrist religion for 2,000 years, so these are different species, and hard to compare.
I agree with your assessment of his misinterpretation of anti semitism. Joe Webbon and Jon Harris and Joseph Spurgeon have been talking on this lately. I think you expounded on it well. I love Wilson, but this is a blind spot for him.
We all love him. My very first post here last April was a fan post for Moscow. Believe me, I’m deeply upset by their recent tactics.
Interesting article. I don't know pastor Wilson so haven't followed the controversy from a Christian perspective. I'm not dispensational so don't carry a special brief for Jews as more than another bloc of hopelessly lost people without the Mesaiah they, and we in our natural state, reject.
I think I follow your thoughts on the Jews in OT writings and in NT writings but I wonder your reasoning for carrying those thoughts forward past that era, say ending in AD70 with the near total destruction of their religion. No temple, no sacrifice, little to no geneology... Are they truly the same people as the Judeans? In truth the average 12 yo Baptist kid knows more about their heritage than they do.
Thanks.
Very good question - Jews today are the ideological descendants of the Pharisees who rejected Christ, not necessarily the blood relatives. It’s more about a covenantal mindset and lineage now.
"We will not have this man rule over us" is a universal moral position, though never more clearly articulated.
I'm not attempting to refute your position, I'm trying to understand the support for it; particularly how the rejection of Christ differs from that of any other unbeliever.
Admitedly, I am more aquatinted with liberal Jews who identify only ethnicly with their heritage.
Oh you’re fine bro - that’s what we come here for—discussion! I am open to being persuaded otherwise, but presently I understand the ideological nature of the Jewish identity to be covenantal, as Hagar was in a covenant of works with God and had no share in the promise (Galatians 2). Their unbelief is individually damning, and communally they’re cut off for the olive tree, but “if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?“
Honestly the best thing I’ve read on this topic. Thank you for you biblically-informed, charitable, persuasive, and well-written article. Very timely stuff given the last few months.
Thank you for reading, brother.
I was surprised to see a piece that was this lengthy of a criticism of Doug Wilson's interpretations of anti-semitism with no mention of dispensationalism. Especially his rejection of dispensationalism. I think it adds great context to his perspective.
Those of us who are dispensational don’t have silly arguments like this disguised as intellectual debate.
No you guys instead have John Hagee going on about blood moons and whatnot 😂😂😂😂
Don’t listen to John Hagee but John MacArthur - yes. Pure bible.
Ok. I'm not going to fight with you about theology and you shouldn't want to fight either. Go in peace.
My favorite dispensationalist verses are all the ones where the NT writers say that the Church is the continuation of Abraham's seed, and that the only inclusion of ethnic Jews from this point forward is through faith in Jesus. Those are the best verses.
And that’s why you guys are going down rabbit trails trying to understand a simple concept. I respect amillennials and postmillennials but you both reject a myriad of NT and more-so OT passages that explain God is not done with the nation and will fulfill His promises to true blood line Jews. We see it happening before our eyes!
Most of us were dispys for many years. I am not one now because the Scriptures are clear on the matter, church history is nearly unanimous on the matter, and because it is a fad that is dying out. You came here and brought it up for debate, but really, if you're deep in it, there's no need to fight about it, we can hopefully stick to the same general team here and edify one another on other topics.
I’m not exactly sure what you mean, sorry. His rejection of dispensationalism would be good to bring up because it would add clarity to his definition of antisemitism? Is that what you mean, and how so?
Yes. That's what I mean. I think it's fundamental in the thinking of most American Evangelicals today, especially those who are not Reformed with Post Mil Eschatology
Please see here:
https://michaelhoffman.substack.com/p/churchianitys-support-for-israeli
You wrote, "I would not recommend people read Milk and Honey to understand better the current fracas on the right over Zionism, Jewishness, AIPAC, and all the rest of it. An open Bible would be better." In addition to the Bible, kindly point me to some resources to help me understand the said fracas.
Thomas Massie recently had some good inside baseball re: AIPAC. Watch his interview with Tucker. Honestly, my views have been shaped by such a wide array of voices, I would rather not point to one or two for the risk of being quickly pigeonholed on such a dicey topic. Let me just say, I wasn't being glib when I said the open Bible is our best medicine and definer of these issues.
Got that. Thanks for a very helpful discussion of Wilson's weakness on this point. I felt uneasy when he pinned everything on envy. You provided, I believe, a good definition of antisemitism.
ty bred - but wat means by
"left to myself I, like every Gentile Christian, ...would descend into the same madness of unbelief as the unbelieving Jews, or worse."
seems to contradict one of your theses here, that "i deny... that the Jews in their sin are no worse for the world than any other group."
Right, right - so just speaking in general patterns here. Plenty of Gentiles as individuals are in far worse positions in their sin than individual Jews.
So, we’re each of us vulnerable to the depths of our fallen nature, which virtually has no bottom. But in general, or on average, the Jews have to marshal their willpower against the light of the Lord more determinedly than does the average Gentile in his pagan darkness.